Talk:Dovecot Postfix Virtual

Nomination for Deletion (2009-10)
I've nominated this article for deletion for the reasons stated. In my opinion simply saying "this article is for advanced users" to get out of explaining things properly is not right for a wiki such as this one. Regardless of what you put at the top, newbies will ignore it and use this article anyway.

--AllenJB 09:15, 9 October 2009 (GMT)

Retort
this page is covering another area then the http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Mail_server_using_Postfix_and_Dovecot which by the way i like more the way this(for deletion) page is over the other one.

the other page is specific for postfixadmin+postifx+others. nothing there is covering the structure of the mysql DB or the purpose of the queries themselves. i am working on a cross distribution(linux) mail server setup with scripts the does anything for you. with a detailed info about the meaning and level of function of each software. it will be in my language (HEBREW) and later on in english.

--Eliezer (16/04/2011)

I know your page is longer, and goes into more detail, but there are a few things it doesn't cover.

Firstly, your page does not explain how to set up encryption. My page does.
 * No, your article does not explain this - it throws some unexplained configuration variables in. As is explained at the top of the Mail server using Postfix and Dovecot article, "extras" like encryption are not included for two reasons: 1) Length and detail; And 2) Because they are relatively simple modifications to an existing setup which are documented either in the official documentation (eg. Sieve) or this wiki (eg. Postfix and Dovecot TLS/SSL - both of which have dedicated articles, neither of which are referenced by your article).
 * --AllenJB 08:45, 10 October 2009 (GMT)


 * I would argue that the whole config is relatively simple; and that encryption, like most parts of the puzzle, only works if everything fits together. Nevertheless, it's something your article doesn't cover.  It may be easy, but so is finding another article that describes what you do online.

Secondly, your page uses an apache frontend for configuration. Thus anyone following your article must first install apache, and then must make all configuration changes in the frontend. My article provides a configuration process using flat files.

Thirdly, your article describes how to store virtual users, domains, and mailbox information in a mysql database. That's not the only way to do it, nor is it necessarily the best way. My article explains how to use flat files and hash databases for these resources.
 * I don't believe that the article ever claims that there is only one way to set things up. But the setup in the article is based on PostfixAdmin, allowing for easy administration. Like, I believe, the majority of users who are using such an article, my setup is based on a VPS which has low storage and is being used as a web server anyway. The installation and setup of MySQL and Apache are sufficiently documented, both on and off this wiki. Thus their setup is not included to avoid duplication, reduce length and keep the article simple. The article clearly states the presumed knowledge at the top so that readers know in advance what to expect.
 * --AllenJB 08:45, 10 October 2009 (GMT)


 * But that's just the thing - mine does too. It clearly explains that it's for experienced admins who know basically what they want, but just don't have the syntax for both programs memorized.  Have I gone too far in assuming a certain degree of knowledge in my audience?  After all, you yourself wrote the definitive postfix/dovecot/virtual article; why write a whole bunch of text for something as you say, "is sufficiently documented, both on and off this wiki"?  After all, "[your] setup is not included to avoid duplication, reduce length [etc]".

Fourthly, my article provides configuration files in their entirety. Your page provides only lists these files snippet by snippet.
 * My article explains what is being done as it goes along. The entire configuration is there - just broken up by explanations. It's not designed to be copy-pasted (no article on this wiki should be, in my opinion). It's designed to be read and understood before the reader decides

whether that's the configuration they want or not. While some of the explanations would be duplicated in your article if it were up to what I consider to be a satisfactory quality, there are things which aren't explained and are used in your article.


 * That is true.


 * Part of my concern is that in parts it doesn't appear that the writer fully knows what they are talking about, with comments such as "Are these necessary?" in the configuration. While writing the Mail server using Postfix and Dovecot article, I came up against things I didn't know for sure. In these cases, rather than leave the reader confused, I spent 5 minutes researching and testing and improved both my knowledge and the article.
 * --AllenJB 08:45, 10 October 2009 (GMT)

These were the drawbacks to your page that prevented me from following it. I decided to share the configuration I developed with the world, so others in my position could benefit as well. It doesn't conflict with your page; it supplements it by explaining an alternative configuration without duplicating its lengthy descriptions and explanations. That's exactly why I refer to your page in the introduction; I think it did a perfectly adequate job of explaining that part of things.

Saying that I'm trying to "get out of explaining things" misses the point. Too much unnecessary information is not a feature, it's just in the way. Not everyone configuring a mail server is new to it, and I don't understand why you think we should cater so exclusively to people who ignore the introduction to articles. Why must the gentoo wiki only be for newbies who haven't yet learned not to skim documentation concerning materials they don't understand? Why must there be only one article about setting up a postfix + dovecot virtual mail server when it is clearly not universal in audience nor comprehensive in its coverage?
 * Every article on the wiki should cater for everyone - newbies and experienced users alike. It's easy for experienced users to skim through the Mail server using Postfix and Dovecot article, speedily setting up a similar configuration. Likewise newbies can easily read it thoroughly, learning what settings do and something about the alternatives. It's not about the quantity of articles on setting up a Postfix and Dovecot based mail setup, it's about the quality of the articles.
 * As an additional argument to the ones I've already given, why would a user whose knowledge is advanced enough to know what they are doing with this article which has no explanations need this article at all? If their knowledge is that good they would be able to configure the setup easily without this article. Thus I would argue that this article holds no value at all.
 * --AllenJB 08:45, 10 October 2009 (GMT)


 * Because even people who know how mailservers work don't necessarily have entire config files memorized. If you know what you're trying to do, it's all about getting all the magic words right.  A paste-able config file is worth more than a hefty explination in thoses cases.


 * But perhaps you're right. Perhaps this article is too terse for the gentoo wiki.  Perhaps it isn't polished enough, or long enough.


 * I have decided not to argue the issue further, but rather give in to your superior authority on the matter.


 * I recognize your complaints about general quality; it could do with another once-over. However, I also feel that, with your article already existing, this one would only be valuable if it provided working config files that were all in once piece, and not interrupted by lengthy explinations.


 * The question before you, then, is whether it would, if polished a bit, but still containing entire paste-able configs, have a place here. If not, then we should be all means delete it.  If so, then I'll spruce it up some, just because I think there are people out there who can use this.

!!!!!Please don't delete this page... The other page turns off pam authentication, which is not what everybody wants, and is way too complex for my needs...a simple mail server setup on my home machine for my personal email. I don't want or need the complexity of virtual hosting and I am sure other people agree. This page is simple, I don't need to know why it works, its enough that it does and gets my mail server up and running quickly and without 500 steps....also the other page glosses right over the mysql stuff which is critical to successfully configuring the system. - Bob Shueey

Please Do Not Delete This Page (2010-10)
Regardless of what you put at the top, newbies will ignore it and use this article anyway. --AllenJB 09:15, 9 October 2009 (GMT)

I agree that the page can be improved, however, the proposed replacement page is not an equivalent substitution; the proposed replacement page is a much more elaborate setup.

The original page describes a simple, low-dependency setup that I've not found anywhere else. I was able to use these instructions to set up my own email services.

--Richard (23-October-2010)

Page should not be deleted
Some of us do not want to use MySQL as a user storage. The "alternate" article listed does not show how to use flat files instead of MySQL. I'm sure MySQL is a good way to go, but it does require more server resources as it is an additional process. Plus it adds additional security concerns to keep in mind when hardening the server. Regarding the listing of entire configuration files, one should never post their entire configuration file out here on the internet; that is a bad security practice. Please do not delete this page. We need the reference. Thanks